by Ryan Myers |
With Pope Francis’ recent visit to the U.S. and address to Congress, many people are curious about what his visit and his words mean for Catholicism, and about his relationship to the rest of the world. To get a better picture of the kind of impact Pope Francis is and will be having on the world, UP’s Fr. Charlie Gordon sat down for a question and answer session. Gordon is the co-director of the Garaventa Center for Catholic Intellectual Life and American Culture.
Is your interest in the papacy in general or historically, or is it this pope (Pope Francis) specifically?
Well, I guess I would have to say both. One of the things that interests me about the pope’s visit is that we are seeing something very ancient in the papacy encountering something very modern in the United States of America. To see how they interact and how very ancient instincts find new manifestations.
For instance, I noticed that the president of the United States, with his wife and children, met the pope on the runway at the airport when he arrived in Washington. Normally, that doesn’t happen. Normally no matter how important you are, you have to get from the airport to the White House and the president meets you there.
Well, that reminded me of when the Byzantine Empire, a thousand years ago, when the pope came to visit Byzantium. The emperor met him at the gates, got down off of his own horse, walked over to the pope and lead his horse through the gates of the city. So that is essentially the same human instinct being manifested a millennium apart, in response to the same phenomenon. I am not a historian of the papacy, but I am interested by that.
In your opinion, what differentiates this pope from previous popes? What are some parallels you might see?
I think that if you read anything that the pope has written, it’s at one level sort of a cut-and-paste job of the statements of his predecessors and of bishops all over the world. In a sense, there isn’t a lot that is new. For example, on the plane I believe, on this visit just before entering the United States, the pope said to some reporters, “I know a lot of you think I’m kind of a ‘lefty,’ but I promise you that there is nothing that I have said that isn’t contained in the social teaching of the church. If someone can find something, point it out to me.”
So that’s not it. The difference is that this pope is a spiritual master of a particular kind. You don’t have to be a spiritual master to be the pope, but I think that this one is. Underlying and enlightening everything that he does is a conscious, specific, spiritual tradition and a spiritual program.
What do you think makes him so well received by young Catholics and non-Catholics?
I think that his way of understanding the church is that a church that is primarily concerned with maintaining itself and its institutions and the people who are already members, is a church that is imperiled. And that really the only purpose of the church is to reach out and to go outside of itself. To be completely open to what is outside of the church, especially to go to what the pope calls "the periphery." The periphery means those people who are excluded, those who are ignored, people who are invisible.
I think that people outside of the church who fit into those categories of the periphery realize that he is completely sincere in wanting to enter dialogue with them. Respectful dialogue. And I think that other people who maybe aren’t excluded have a sincere admiration for his openness in that regard.
Do you know what role he had in the recent reestablishment of diplomatic relations between Cuba and the United States?
I’m afraid that that will probably come out in someone’s memoirs in a few years. But it’s interesting that there seems to be a universal acknowledgement that not only was he in favor of it and not only did he advocate for it, but a lot of hard work was put in on the part of the Vatican, especially in the early stages of the dialogue to get it underway.
In what way, if any, do you think he has altered the focus of the church in recent years?
I think he has changed the focus outwardly in the way that I described. I think that he has helped Catholics to understand how to evangelize, which is to share the good news, through attraction and not through imposing obligations on people. That the way that you create new Christians is for people to say, “Wow, that pope has got something, kind of a joy there. There is a kind of compassion there. And I am attracted to that and maybe I would like to be a part of that.”
I think that is kind of a refreshing insight. It’s kind of like when you look at a sunset, a really glorious sunset, the first thing you want to do, without even having to think about it is to try to find somebody to share it with. And if there is no one there, you feel like your own experience of the sunset is somehow diminished. That’s really what he is urging everyone to do, just share the joy. That seems pretty attractive, sharing the joy.
What is the significance of his visit to the U.S. and his address to Congress?
The difficult concept for Americans to understand is that the pope came to the U.S. because the great World (Meeting) of Families. We think of ourselves as being the center of the universe, but the pope is not particularly interested in the center. He would far rather be on the periphery somewhere. He would far rather go to someplace that the pope has never been. That’s why when he chose his latest cardinals, he chose a lot of them from little places scattered throughout the world that had never had a cardinal before. Essentially it’s kind of counter-intuitive for Pope (Francis) to come to the U.S. But obviously he has had a powerful impact and he has tried to share the joy with us as he would anywhere else.
As to what the pope’s impact might be on American culture, I think that has to do with his desire for folks to break out of their ideological boxes. Because when you are interpreting everything in terms of your ideology, whether it is conservative or progressive, what that ensures is that you will never experience anything new. So, what he would like people to do is to escape from their ideologies and actually see one another, not as a threat, a stranger, or a means to an end, but as (a) real, mysterious human being with whom I can enter into dialogue.
Are environmental issues typically addressed by popes? Or is this new territory?
Well, again, if you read what he has written about the environment, it has that same cut-and-paste quality. It will say, “As my predecessor Pope Benedict said,” and “As Pius the XII said,” and “As the American bishop said,” so the content is not surprising.
It’s about relationship. If we see the world and our environment as a means to our ends, if we commodify the environment, then we will end up destroying it. The way that the pope wants us to avoid destroying our world is by entering into relationship with it. We are in relationship with the planet. So once you enter into relationship you get feelings of love and you don’t want to destroy something that you have a living relationship with. He’s essentially taking the same relationship approach to the environment that he is taking to overcoming the impasses that afflict us as states and as individuals.
Do you think that his papacy will change the Catholic Church?
People today tend to be anti-hierarchical and one of the critiques of the Catholic Church is that it is so hierarchical, but one unappreciated aspect of hierarchical systems is that they are really susceptible to substantial change very quickly from the top. So, in effect, I think that he can have substantive influence. And I think that a lot of faithful Catholics in a lot of responsible positions, before they make their choices now, are thinking, “Gee, what would Francis think of this choice?”
I don’t know whether this is true but somebody said, “In the Vatican carpool, nobody wants to sign out the limousines anymore. Everybody wants to sign out the Ford Fusions.” So that’s sort of an intangible way that you can see that his influence can be multiplied.
Is there anything else that you would like to add on this topic?
I think that if each of us would think back to the most spiritual experiences that we have had in our lives, that probably we would remember that in that moment we felt infinitely loved and that we need never ever be afraid. That experience is what Pope Francis means by joy and what he would like us to do is to return to that experience again and again, and then share what we find there with one another. That’s what I think is his project.
Watch Pope Francis' full Congressional address here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=3&v=ko1oR1T1lvI
Video courtesy of speaker.gov. Ryan Myers is a reporter for The Beacon. He can be reached at myersr17@up.edu.
